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	<title>Comments on: Two Semantic Webs</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/</link>
	<description>Pursuing datameaningfulness, online and off</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Hendler on the Chaotic Semantic Web &#171; The &#8220;Meta&#8221; Internet: The genesis of a &#8220;virtual&#8221; Silicon Valleys leveraging the power of the Internet.</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-854</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Hendler on the Chaotic Semantic Web &#171; The &#8220;Meta&#8221; Internet: The genesis of a &#8220;virtual&#8221; Silicon Valleys leveraging the power of the Internet.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2008 19:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-854</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] set me off today was discovering a blog called “Two Semantic Webs” in which the author has seen the light and says that she gets it - there are two visions of the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] set me off today was discovering a blog called “Two Semantic Webs” in which the author has seen the light and says that she gets it &#8211; there are two visions of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mindswap Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ..but wait, Rachel&#8217;s one of the good folks</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mindswap Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ..but wait, Rachel&#8217;s one of the good folks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:08:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] my blog of a couple days ago, I said what set me off was a blog by Rachel.  Let me be clear, I was in no way disagreeing with her view of the Semantic Web - if you read [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] my blog of a couple days ago, I said what set me off was a blog by Rachel.  Let me be clear, I was in no way disagreeing with her view of the Semantic Web &#8211; if you read [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-700</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-700</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, I think your original title was correct. The part I question is the idea that Hendler is refutting criticisms of the semantic web. While that&#039;s partially true (especially in the case of Shirky &amp; O&#039;Reilly, it seems), his post is mostly about adamantly denouncing things that I said that he actually agrees with.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I think your original title was correct. The part I question is the idea that Hendler is refutting criticisms of the semantic web. While that&#8217;s partially true (especially in the case of Shirky &amp; O&#8217;Reilly, it seems), his post is mostly about adamantly denouncing things that I said that he actually agrees with.</p>
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		<title>By: Nova Spivack</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nova Spivack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Rachel, ok, hopefully I&#039;ve corrected my mistake (changed title of my post), thanks.

Nova]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rachel, ok, hopefully I&#8217;ve corrected my mistake (changed title of my post), thanks.</p>
<p>Nova</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brandon,

I totally agree with you that &quot;Nobody thinks that everyone is just going to magically agree on a few ontologies or even a few data formats&quot; and I think I pretty much said so in my article. But the fact is that there are people who think that &lt;i&gt;that&#039;s the intention&lt;/i&gt; and they, therefore, think the Semantic Web is impossible. 

I set out to present those people with another view of the semantic web, in hopes that it would clarify some things and dispell some myths. Instead, I seem to have sparked some controversy among people who, as far as I can tell, already share my perspective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brandon,</p>
<p>I totally agree with you that &#8220;Nobody thinks that everyone is just going to magically agree on a few ontologies or even a few data formats&#8221; and I think I pretty much said so in my article. But the fact is that there are people who think that <i>that&#8217;s the intention</i> and they, therefore, think the Semantic Web is impossible. </p>
<p>I set out to present those people with another view of the semantic web, in hopes that it would clarify some things and dispell some myths. Instead, I seem to have sparked some controversy among people who, as far as I can tell, already share my perspective.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-697</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-697</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[James, 

I&#039;ve left a more comprehensive response to your post over &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mindswap.org/blog/2007/11/21/shirkyng-my-responsibility&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;on your blog&lt;/a&gt;, but here let me just say that I did not mean to mischaracterize your article. I am responding more to the preconceived notions of people that I have &lt;i&gt;actually spoken to about their understanding of the Semantic Web&lt;/i&gt;. Now, perhaps some of those people read the article and didn&#039;t get much further than the tale of Pete and Lucy, or perhaps they didn&#039;t read it at all. 

I&#039;m not saying that the ideas in the article are anything short of brilliant - I&#039;m saying there&#039;s still a need to bring these ideas into terms that the mainstream can relate to. Unfortunately, the part of the article that attempts to do this overreaches a little (in my opinion) and as a result, has caused some of the misguided notions that you, yourself, are so rightfully concerned about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve left a more comprehensive response to your post over <a href="http://www.mindswap.org/blog/2007/11/21/shirkyng-my-responsibility" rel="nofollow">on your blog</a>, but here let me just say that I did not mean to mischaracterize your article. I am responding more to the preconceived notions of people that I have <i>actually spoken to about their understanding of the Semantic Web</i>. Now, perhaps some of those people read the article and didn&#8217;t get much further than the tale of Pete and Lucy, or perhaps they didn&#8217;t read it at all. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that the ideas in the article are anything short of brilliant &#8211; I&#8217;m saying there&#8217;s still a need to bring these ideas into terms that the mainstream can relate to. Unfortunately, the part of the article that attempts to do this overreaches a little (in my opinion) and as a result, has caused some of the misguided notions that you, yourself, are so rightfully concerned about.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-696</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rachel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-696</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comments, Lior. 

Based on your reaction  - and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mindswap.org/blog/2007/11/21/shirkyng-my-responsibility&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;James Hendler&#039;s&lt;/a&gt;, the force of which sort of surprised me - I fear that I didn&#039;t give the proper context to this post. I didn&#039;t mean to say that Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, &amp; and Ora Lassila have this rigid view of what the Semantic Web should be. Their body of work clearly shows that they don&#039;t - for anyone who has read it.

What I meant is that the Scientific American article starts out by painting a picture that oversimplifies the concept, and many people never get beyond that. I&#039;ve noticed this over and over in my own conversations with people, and I&#039;m trying to find a way to get beyond those preconceptions. In my experience, most of the people who dismiss the concept of the Semantic Web do so on the grounds that they think the intention is that it be The Intelligent Web. 

By nature, I break things down and define them. If I have to split the Semantic Web into two parts, two phases, or two models in order to explain it better to people, then that&#039;s what I&#039;m going to do. Just because I&#039;m trying to aknowledge and respond to these misguided notions, doesn&#039;t mean I fall into the camps that believe them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, Lior. </p>
<p>Based on your reaction  &#8211; and <a href="http://www.mindswap.org/blog/2007/11/21/shirkyng-my-responsibility" rel="nofollow">James Hendler&#8217;s</a>, the force of which sort of surprised me &#8211; I fear that I didn&#8217;t give the proper context to this post. I didn&#8217;t mean to say that Tim Berners-Lee, James Hendler, &amp; and Ora Lassila have this rigid view of what the Semantic Web should be. Their body of work clearly shows that they don&#8217;t &#8211; for anyone who has read it.</p>
<p>What I meant is that the Scientific American article starts out by painting a picture that oversimplifies the concept, and many people never get beyond that. I&#8217;ve noticed this over and over in my own conversations with people, and I&#8217;m trying to find a way to get beyond those preconceptions. In my experience, most of the people who dismiss the concept of the Semantic Web do so on the grounds that they think the intention is that it be The Intelligent Web. </p>
<p>By nature, I break things down and define them. If I have to split the Semantic Web into two parts, two phases, or two models in order to explain it better to people, then that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m going to do. Just because I&#8217;m trying to aknowledge and respond to these misguided notions, doesn&#8217;t mean I fall into the camps that believe them.</p>
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		<title>By: Lior</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-695</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lior]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-695</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi,
Actually, Tim Berners-Lee predicts exactly what you call the &quot;Chaotic Semantic Web&quot;. If you refer to his book &quot;Weaving the Web&quot;, in the chapter where he&#039;s describing the Semantic Web vision (I think it was 13) you would realize that Berners-Lee is expecting pretty much the same thing: agreement on ontologies and meanings will emerge as people will use the said technologies (RDF, OWL) more and more. There is no need for an agreement on terms as a prerequisite for the semantic web - it&#039;s basically a process.
It&#039;s not 2 different things - it&#039;s one semantic web that may evolve (hopefully) into something more orderly as more and more people and organizations begin to use the same terms (=ontologies) to describe things. In the meantime, people will just point from one ontology to another.
So for example, if I have an ontology that defines the properties of a &#039;Person&#039; entity, I may have a &#039;last name&#039; property. 
Your ontology can have a similar notion of a Person, but with a property named &#039;surname&#039;.
So now, when we want our two programs to cooperate, we would only need to point from &#039;last name&#039; to &#039;surname&#039; saying that these 2 properties actually mean the same thing. There&#039;s no need for an actual agreement on terms for our programs to cooperate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Actually, Tim Berners-Lee predicts exactly what you call the &#8220;Chaotic Semantic Web&#8221;. If you refer to his book &#8220;Weaving the Web&#8221;, in the chapter where he&#8217;s describing the Semantic Web vision (I think it was 13) you would realize that Berners-Lee is expecting pretty much the same thing: agreement on ontologies and meanings will emerge as people will use the said technologies (RDF, OWL) more and more. There is no need for an agreement on terms as a prerequisite for the semantic web &#8211; it&#8217;s basically a process.<br />
It&#8217;s not 2 different things &#8211; it&#8217;s one semantic web that may evolve (hopefully) into something more orderly as more and more people and organizations begin to use the same terms (=ontologies) to describe things. In the meantime, people will just point from one ontology to another.<br />
So for example, if I have an ontology that defines the properties of a &#8216;Person&#8217; entity, I may have a &#8216;last name&#8217; property.<br />
Your ontology can have a similar notion of a Person, but with a property named &#8216;surname&#8217;.<br />
So now, when we want our two programs to cooperate, we would only need to point from &#8216;last name&#8217; to &#8216;surname&#8217; saying that these 2 properties actually mean the same thing. There&#8217;s no need for an actual agreement on terms for our programs to cooperate.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Taylor</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Taylor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Nov 2007 14:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This has been said elsewhere , but just to be clear; the &quot;Chaotic Semantic Web&quot; is what the idea has always been.

The &quot;Orderly Semantic Web&quot; is a straw man. Nobody thinks that everyone is just going to magically agree on a few ontologies or even a few data formats; it&#039;s going to be a &quot;fractal mess&quot; (to quote Tim Berners-Lee) for a long time to come.

I don&#039;t know where the idea that the SemWeb is about the straw man comes from, but it seems to have taken a better hold on people than the truth.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been said elsewhere , but just to be clear; the &#8220;Chaotic Semantic Web&#8221; is what the idea has always been.</p>
<p>The &#8220;Orderly Semantic Web&#8221; is a straw man. Nobody thinks that everyone is just going to magically agree on a few ontologies or even a few data formats; it&#8217;s going to be a &#8220;fractal mess&#8221; (to quote Tim Berners-Lee) for a long time to come.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where the idea that the SemWeb is about the straw man comes from, but it seems to have taken a better hold on people than the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Mindswap Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Shirkyng my responsibility</title>
		<link>http://blog.rachellovinger.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mindswap Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Shirkyng my responsibility]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meaningfuldata.wordpress.com/2007/11/16/two-semantic-webs/#comment-685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] set me off today was discovering a blog called &#8220;Two Semantic Webs&#8221; in which the author has seen the light and says that she gets it - there are two visions of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] set me off today was discovering a blog called &#8220;Two Semantic Webs&#8221; in which the author has seen the light and says that she gets it &#8211; there are two visions of [...]</p>
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